In this episode of Consider the Constitution, host Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey is joined by Patrick Campbell, a retired US Marine Corps officer, attorney, veteran high school government teacher, and assistant director of the Center for the Constitution. Campbell discusses the Center for the Constitution's work engaging diverse audiences with the concept of government by the people. He also talks about the importance of compromise in a democratic society, the role of the media, and the impact of physical spaces like Montpelier on understanding the democratic process. Campbell emphasizes the need for ongoing dialogue and engagement in the democratic process, stating that our freedoms mean more than our disagreements.
In this episode of Consider the Constitution, host Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey is joined by Patrick Campbell, a retired US Marine Corps officer, attorney, veteran high school government teacher, and assistant director of the Center for the Constitution. Campbell discusses the Center for the Constitution's work engaging diverse audiences with the concept of government by the people. He also talks about the importance of compromise in a democratic society, the role of the media, and the impact of physical spaces like Montpelier on understanding the democratic process. Campbell emphasizes the need for ongoing dialogue and engagement in the democratic process, stating that our freedoms mean more than our disagreements.
Announcer:
Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American hosted by Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey. In featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Consider the Constitution as brought to you by the Robert H. Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey :
Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution. I'm your host, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey, director of the Robert H. Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier. In previous episodes, we've heard from a range of guests including constitutional scholars, heritage practitioners, and subject matter experts. They have all provided valuable historical context for our consideration of the Constitution and great examples of how our founding document continues to impact and empower each of us today. And that mission is really the heart of what we do here at the Robert H. Smith Center for the Constitution. Our signature programs are conducted here at James Madison's Montpelier, and we host guests and scholars from across the nation each year. So while you might be finding us for the first time through this podcast, there is so much more to know and discover about our work at the Center for the Constitution and how you can participate. So with that in mind, our special guest today is the person who truly makes so much of our work happen. And that is Patrick Campbell. Patrick is a retired US Marine Corps officer who served as judge advocate, or in civilian terms, an attorney. He is also a veteran high school government teacher with 13 years of service and serves today as assistant director of the Center for the Constitution. Patrick Campbell, welcome to Consider the Constitution.
Patrick Campbell:
Thanks, Katie. It's fun to be in this studio with you and I've really been looking forward to this.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey:
Now, Patrick. Each year you organize and lead seminars for diverse audiences of teachers, law enforcement officers, and international groups that directly connect America's present with Madison's ideas of government by the people. And that's truly a tall order. Can you tell us more about your work,
Patrick Campbell (02:36):
Katie? I kind of define my job as trying to
(02:41):
Engage a diverse group of audiences with really a messy, an untidy, a sometimes complicated idea of government by the people because it's government, by the people, it's messy, it's untidy, it's complicated. So here at the home of the Father of the Constitution, I primarily seminars and those seminars are especially for teachers and for law enforcement groups and for international groups. I also spend a fair amount of time with students coming to Montpelier as well as my pastime as a high school teacher. And so really most days I come to work and I'm trying to figure out how do I engage these different audiences with this idea of a democracy, a republic, a government by the people. And that's a pretty fun challenge to come to work for.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (03:31):
Now you mentioned that grappling with this idea of government can be messy, untidy, complicated, and I think most of us would probably use those terms when we talk about government today. In regard to James Madison, we can glean a lot from his writing of Federalist 51 with the Federalist Papers being that series of persuasive essays written by John Jay, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton to convince the states to ratify the Constitution.
Patrick Campbell (04:04):
Now,
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (04:04):
Madison knew there was no perfect government. As he writes in Federalist 51, he says, if men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. Patrick, what more can you tell us about Madison's thoughts on government and how he's intellectually engaging with this idea?
Patrick Campbell (04:31):
He's definitely thinking about government for decades, so we could truly call him a man of the enlightenment this time where these philosophers are thinking about what's the relationship of people to their government. So if we step back maybe a hundred years before Madison's born, Thomas Hobbes writes in the Leviathan about the relationship to government, and some of our listeners have heard this quote, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short, he's talking about what if there is no government, right? Thomas Hobbes is describing the state of nature. And so he's making a point for we need a ruler and indeed making a point that a monarch is a good thing because it keeps people from that nasty, poor, solitary, brutish and short life. And so Madison's read Thomas Hobbs and Leviathan and he's read Follow on thinkers like Jean Jacques Rousseau and like Barron de Montesquieu and these enlightenment thinkers. But what I think really separates him is he wants to get things done and Madison is very pragmatic. And when Dr. J Kos was speaking to you, I think he got a point across a lot of the political aspects of James Madison. He wants to get things done, so he's much more than a philosopher. He's also a pragmatic politician.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (05:55):
You work with those who teach, implement and protect the Constitution. And even though we are all guided by this founding charter, we still have our own individual opinions and perhaps different priorities for what we want to see from our government for our country. And this is not at all bad. In fact, different perspectives and voices shared in a constructive way towards a common good is really what sparks creativity and innovation. Now with your work today with educators, law enforcement, international professionals and leaders, how does the Constitution give us the framework to debate or address our differences?
Patrick Campbell (06:40):
I like the way you say that in the sense of a framework to address our differences. Madison and hopefully politicians today don't think that we don't have differences. We clearly have differences. And as you mentioned, that's part of the richness of American society. That's part of the richness of government by the people. And if I can harken back to Winston Churchill, I think he recognizes that
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (07:08):
Winston
Patrick Campbell (07:08):
Churchill was in the House of Commons in November of 1947, and he says, indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. Winston Churchill is a member of parliament. He's no longer the prime minister that from my perspective, has led the free world in defeating Nazi Germany and the Axis powers. So he's just been somewhat a hero of the western world and yet the people have fired him. He's no longer the prime minister, and he recognizes that people still yearn for this government process. It's very imperfect. It involves meeting together and talking about our differences and our methods of solving them are also imperfect, but this democratic principle is still fundamental to how society should be governed.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (08:09):
Now, we mentioned briefly earlier that you, in addition to your career in the military and in law, you're also an educator. And I'm curious to hear more about the perspectives you see from working with students both here at Montpelier, but also in your career at four different schools. What does that look like?
Patrick Campbell (08:31):
Katie? Sometimes I think that the middle schoolers and high schoolers could teach us something. As adults, we sometimes get locked in our views and we've got this us versus them mentality. And sometimes the middle schoolers and high schoolers are tired of it. They don't want to hear about that, just us versus them. That's often reflected in the mass media. So when I ask them what's the purpose of the mass media, sometimes they want to say to inform, and I say mass media, often the purpose is to make money. So the mass media is going to highlight those differences. And that's where I think we often don't hear about the willingness to compromise from much of America, not that we've won, not that we've got our way, but that there is a strong desire to get something done with compromise. I think a very madisonian principle of embracing tough ideas and finding a solution, and the students are often expecting better of us adults and expecting us to be able to solve our differences within this constitutional system, even though we may be arguing about them, that we can still listen to each other. If I've learned one thing in education, if you listen to that middle schooler, a high schooler and show them that respect, you'll get that respect back. And so just that ability to dialogue, not always to agree, but that ability to dialogue. And I often think our middle schoolers and high schoolers do that better than others.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (10:07):
That's an interesting point. It sounds like in your experience, students are watching what adults are doing, how they're engaging with each other. Can you talk more about your experience teaching comparative government and what that looks like in the classroom and how students respond to that?
Patrick Campbell (10:28):
Yes. So I got to teach a course about six other countries, and I found the students in that comparative government course learn the most about their American government because they could compare it with others and they could see a parliamentary system. They could see a system in Mexico with eight different parties. They could see a theocratic system, they could see how federalism looks in other contexts. And another way to say that would be Alex de Tocqueville's visit to America in the 1830s. So he is the great-grandson of aristocracy. In fact, his great great grandfather had been guillotined. He'd been beheaded because he was not in the majority. And de Tocqueville is sent to America to study prisons. And he spends many months traveling through America studying the American prison system. And what he finds is this flourishing of civic society that he doesn't expect. And he writes a book, we translate as democracy in America, and he's pointing out from a outsider's point of view, look at these voluntary civic organizations, so civil society or civic society, that part of society outside the government, voluntary organizations and the importance of that in our system, that it's not just the government running things, but the freedom, the creativity.
(11:58):
You talked about the ability to form organizations, sometimes organizations that fail, sometimes organizations that are very imperfect because they're made up of people, but the Tocqueville is just somewhat astounded at these voluntary organizations in America. And he finds that one of the defining characteristics in America that we join in these organizations outside of a family or outside of a tribe or outside of a political group or outside of a government, and we get things done.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (12:28):
In your experience in the military in law as an educator and now as the assistant director at the Center for the Constitution, what can we learn from Madison's notion of compromise, which is the core of his constitutional thought? And I think you've touched on this just a bit, but I'm wondering if you can go a little bit further in talking about that.
Patrick Campbell (12:53):
Well, I think one of the importance is not just locally, but internationally, democracies do not make war on democracies, and that's not something that I came up with at all. There's a professor who's now passed away at a university of Hawaii, and he spent decades studying this phenomenon of what governments do and war. And he came up with data that says over about 200 years from 1816 to 2005 that there were 205 times when a non-democracy made war with another non-democracy, 205 international wars. And then he looked at democracies versus a non-democracy, and he found another 166 wars in that approximately 200 year period. And in that entire period when he looked at democracies versus democracies, he found no wars that democracies don't make war on democracies. Thomas Payne even noted this in common sense in 1776, and he's talking about some of the republics and he's citing Holland and Switzerland not making wars, but then he looks at the king or the monarch or the queen.
(14:06):
And to quote from Thomas Payne, he says, the regal authority swells into a rupture with foreign powers in instances where Republican government, by being formed on more natural principles, would negotiate the mistake. And he's talking about that kind of unchecked ruler that may quickly make war with another government. And Thomas Payne, I think is onto something that Professor Rummel documents by evidence and studying these cases now civil war within a country, certainly there's been terrible examples. Certainly our listeners could cite terrible examples in America where the government has mistreated and even killed people. But Professor Rummel uses this term called death by government in that case, not looking at wars, but just within the government. And in the 20th century alone, he documents over 80 million cases of death by government that the citizens of that country are being killed by that government. And those cases are all in non democracies or at least a partial democracy. And democracies, he doesn't see that case of famine or genocide. Unfortunately, people dime within democracies when they shouldn't. Absolutely. But if you look at his data, professor Rummel, R-U-M-M-E-L, you really may be convinced by his idea that democracy is a method of non-violence. What a concept. Democracy. It's imperfect. We're not going for a perfect union. We're going for a government made of people. But democracy is a method of non-violence.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (15:56):
And we are sitting here today having this conversation at Montpelier, which was the home of James Madison, fourth president of the United States, father of the Constitution, architect of the Bill of Rights. And there is truly something special about this place. Our listeners who have been here may have felt that. I certainly feel that you may as well, Patrick. I think you do. What is the added significance or value in doing this work at Montpelier specifically? What is it about engaging with these ideas here that's special
Patrick Campbell (16:36):
Right off the bat, reflection comes to mind. Recreation, I hope our listeners get a chance to visit. We're in a rural part of Central Virginia, and it's really often a place to get away. I mean, certainly it's an historic site, it's a museum. People are usually coming somewhat on their off time or in the case of the teachers, the law enforcement, the international groups, they're getting away from their regular workday and the chance to reflect on governmental principles and the chance to think about the government's a relationship. And if we think about relationships, if we don't keep working on them, they tend to do poorly. Ben Franklin captures this, and some of us have heard the phrase a republic, if you can keep it. So the constitutional convention is finishing up in September, 1787 in Philadelphia, and there's a delegate from Maryland. And in his diary, James Henry, who's a delegate at the convention records in his diary that Mrs.
(17:38):
Eliza Powell walks up to Dr. Franklin and says, well, doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy? And James McHenry records, Dr. Franken replies a republic if you can keep it. And to me that captures the idea of we need to have a relationship with our government. It's still going to be made up of people, it's still going to be an imperfect union, but we need to keep that relationship going. We need to keep working on it. Katie, there's also a relationship between the people at Montpelier and the guest. And so certainly we are trying to use the significance of this spot, the beauty of this spot, indeed often the pain of this plantation because many of our guests either have a personal connection with the pain of this plantation or can at least think of it in ways that they never thought of before.
(18:37):
So in this relationship where I'm trying to get them to reflect, to be inspired, to be challenged, and to go back to their communities and take that inspiration and make a difference in their communities. As one of the members of Montpelier, I'm also inspired and challenged in my job. I'm continually challenged to try to meet that teacher group or try to meet those students who are a little bit different than last year's students and a lot different than 10 years ago to try to meet those international visitors where they are. And so it's a great chance for me also to recreate and reflect my ideas on government just as I'm challenging them to recreate and reflect on their ideas of government.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (19:27):
Patrick, we get tens of thousands of visitors here each year, and they're interested in touring the Historic Madison House, which served as home to James Madison, senior and Nelly Madison, the president's parents as well as Madison himself and his wife Dolly. They come to see the south yard where enslaved men and women lived, the archeological sites, the DuPont Gardens, which the DuPont family which owned Montpelier and the 20th century cultivated nature trails and so on. There is so much to see here at Montpelier. One place in particular that people mention is the old library, a room in the upstairs of the historic Madison House, and that's the room where James Madison spent much of 1786 at Montpelier, engaged in extensive research as he considered the future of this young nation preparing for the constitutional convention. And it's likely that in this room he conceived many of the main features of what would become the Virginia Plan, the core of the Constitution. Can you share from your experience why that space has such an impact on our visitors?
Patrick Campbell (20:44):
Katie? It is really fun to take our visitors into the old library. It's certainly a focal point for many of them. It's partly a focal point because it draws in so many aspects of what they're seeing in terms of the landscape, the labor, the material culture, the enlightenment thinking, the classics. But in that old library to just be in the space where Madison is spending long days reading, studying, reflecting, looking out to the west, thinking about expanding the sphere and these checks and balances of a state versus a national government and rights of the people. Some of the best moments have been with international groups. So our groups from America, citizens of America, they often make a great connection. They sense the importance of this in the development of America with our constitutional process. So it's fun with them. There was a time I had a couple families on a tour with children, and one of the moms was a naturalized citizen from Argentina.
(21:59):
Katie, this woman was almost having a medical event in that old library as she had studied to become a US citizen, she'd worked to become a US citizen. She'd adopted this country. And she's looking at me just kind of pointing at the space of the room and saying, this is the room where he's coming up with those ideas for the Virginia plan. This is the room where he's studying that's going to inform much of his work on the Bill of Rights, on the debates to get the constitution ratified. And she's just having an emotional experience with the room. So all of us should have our different experiences with that space, but it's often the people who from the outside looking in, they can appreciate it the most of what we have in this country of a system to resolve our differences and to keep striving and to keep trying to make it a more perfect union.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (23:03):
Clearly being in these physical spaces is powerful. It connects us to the past in a very special way.
Patrick Campbell (23:11):
And
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (23:12):
As we briefly discussed, Montpelier was a plantation, a place of enslavement. Are there any spaces on the landscape that you find illuminating for visitors in your quest to engage them with our democratic process?
Patrick Campbell (23:27):
To me, walking into the South Cellar and the different ways the stories of enslavement are told there, I always have a reaction to, and I've had a lot of guests with strong reactions to the different ways that was told.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (23:44):
And you're referring to the exhibit, the mere distinction of color.
Patrick Campbell (23:49):
Yes, I tell guests the mere distinction of color exhibit can take hours in a few different spaces, but the South Cellar is one of the most powerful places to hear, see, feel, the connections with our pasts, what some have said, our original sin in America of enslavement. A really powerful place that also comes to mind is the Liberty Temple. It's a original structure on the property. So the Madison home is original, and this temple is original and it harkens back to the past. And so Madison is very intentionally trying to harken back to the Roman Republic and this temple or Somer study or landscape feature, it's an open air feature. It's modeled off of a temple of Vesta from the Roman Republic. And in Rome that temple symbolized the safety and the prosperity of the Roman Republic. There was women tasked with keeping the flame alive.
(24:59):
And so here's a symbol of how this government continues, and I like to use that space to talk about Texas v Johnson and Texas v Johnson is a Supreme Court case in 1989 that very much upset me in my twenties. In that case, in a five to four decision, the US Supreme Court said, burning the flag is an expressive form of speech burning. The United States flag. If it's your own flag, not somebody else's, but if it's your own flag, cannot be considered criminal conduct despite what the law in Texas said. And that said, there's a law against desecrating rated objects. And at the time in my twenties when that came out, I was quite upset that the Supreme Court would say, you can burn the flag in the government can't lock you up. And I've got a little bit more perspective now, Katie, I don't know if you can hear the Boomer age in my voice, but I live in a country where the government can't take away your liberty for burning a symbol of the country.
(26:07):
And if that's not evidence of freedom, I'm hard pressed to think what is evidence of freedom? And so unleashing the creativity and the thought of the American people, I'm still disgusted by people burning the flag. I don't like it at all. It upsets me. But I live in a country that's so free, that person's not going to lose their liberty. That person cannot be harmed by the government because of the freedoms we cherish. And that freedom as a principle is higher than that disagreement we may have. And so that Liberty Temple reminds me, Hey, in the Roman Republic, I think if the flame went out, Rome and Republic would be prosperous or safe, regardless of whether the flame went out. And I think that the US flag, as much as it's an important symbol for many of us, there's other important things to keep this democratic experiment going.
(27:00):
And I say democratic experiment on purpose because it really requires our engagement. And there could be a hundred flags burned and the US would still continue. There could be a thousand flags burned, and the US would still continue, but we're not going to continue as a imperfect beacon if we don't continue to engage in our government. And so just the chance to come to this space and reflect on what's it going to take for us to keep striving? What's it going to take for us to be democracy? What's it going to take for us to be a government by the people? And maybe it's us continuing to dialogue, continuing to disagree, but to continuing to dialogue. And so it's exciting to be part of that process here at James Madison's Montpelier.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (27:45):
That line really stuck with me. Our freedoms mean more than our disagreements. I think that's really at the heart of this conversation, at the heart of the Constitution. It is to your point about engaging in dialogue, talking to other people, embracing our differences, and respecting others. And I really appreciate this conversation as it's given me and hopefully our listeners as well, a deeper understanding of how places like Montpelier connect the past and the present, and shed light on this need to continue to engage with the idea of government by and for the people. This American Democratic experiment is an ongoing story, one that we write each day, and one that we write here at Montpelier with the work we do at this Center for the Constitution. Patrick Campbell, assistant director of the Robert H. Smith Center for the Constitution. It's really a pleasure speaking with you today. Thank you for being our guest speaker,
Patrick Campbell (28:47):
Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey. Thanks for the chance to dialogue. It's been great for me.
Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey (28:52):
And thank you to everyone listening to the podcast. I hope you'll subscribe and share this show with your friends and family. And join us again in two weeks as we consider the Constitution.